The Coordination Conversation

#1 - MEP Industry Disruptors

• Jordan & Skala Engineers • Season 1 • Episode 1

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MEP Industry Disruptors | Ep. 1 | The Coordination Conversation with Jordan & Skala Engineers

The mechanical, electrical, and plumbing (MEP) engineering world is undergoing rapid change—and if you’re in the building industry, you need to be ready.

In this first episode of The Coordination Conversation by Jordan & Skala Engineers, we break down the most critical disruptors shaping MEP today.

Contents of this podcast:

00:00 - Intro
01:30 - A2L Transitions
11:30 - 2021 Codes
16:50 - Tariff Impacts
18:45 - Construction Administration Changes

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A2L Refrigerant Transition
Discussion on the latest EPA regulations, compliance deadlines, and how design teams are navigating the shift from R-410A to low-GWP A2L refrigerants—especially in VRF systems.

2021 Energy Code Overhaul
The new IECC update is reshaping how teams approach energy modeling, lighting, and HVAC strategies. Learn how we've leverage the code for compliance and cost savings.

Construction Administration Trends
With tighter timelines and more RFIs, construction admin has changed. We explore the rise of submittal parties and how design teams can adapt without compromising quality.

Why It Matters:
These changes aren't just technical—they affect cost, coordination, compliance, and overall project success. Our experts share strategies to stay ahead of the curve.

Subscribe for more insights from the front lines of MEP engineering.

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Disclaimer:
The views and opinions expressed in this video are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the official policies or positions of any video partners or affiliates.
All content provided is for general informational purposes only and is not intended as professional advice for any specific project, site, or situation. Project requirements, conditions, and regulations vary, and what is discussed in this video may not apply to your specific circumstances.
Any reliance you place on this information is strictly at your own risk. Viewers should always consult with a qualified professional before making project-related decisions.
Jordan & Skala Engineers assumes no responsibility or liability for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided.

This content is the intellectual property of Jordan & Skala Engineers and may not be reproduced, redistributed, or used by any third party without the express written permission of JSE.

🎙️ The Coordination Conversation is a podcast by Jordan & Skala Engineers.
We’ve been sharing our insight with the A/E/C industry since 1953—and now we’re putting it on the mic.

Catch every episode for expert takes on MEP engineering, sustainability, BIM, and low-voltage systems.

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Speaker:

Thank you for joining our show today. I'm Kendy Guillaume with Jordan & Skala Engineers, one of the principals based out of Houston, Texas. I'm joined here today with Sam Weaver. We're here to talk about some of the MEP disruptors and, what we've seen in the past couple of years.

Speaker:

Sam, one of the big issues that been plaguing the industry over the past couple of years is A2L. And these A2L transitions. Tell us a little bit about what you've seen.

Speaker:

So, it's been a big issue in the industry. Ever since the EPA released their, mandate that we all transition to lower global warming potential refrigerants in, October 2023. The industry wasn't really prepared for it. From a code perspective and manufacturing perspective, and we've seen a lot of challenges trying to navigate that.

Speaker:

You know, it's interesting you said a lot of challenges coming from the industry, even on the manufacturing side. Some of our, reps, we're not even ready for, the change in this A2L transition.

Speaker:

Yeah. That's right. I mean, it was middle of 2024 before we could even design around the equipment, before the cut sheets were available. And even now, we're just now being able to design around it for VRF because it -- it has a slower timeline in the transition.

Speaker:

And speaking of VRFs, we know, the transition took place with DX split systems and lots, lots of different jurisdictions were able to work through that, utilizing some of the different ASHRAE methods. And we were able to get over the hump through that. But right now, with the new administration, what are you seeing with the VRFs and how is that impacting that change with VRFs?

Speaker:

So there was a recent, amendment to the EPA's ruling, in December of 2024, that extended the timeline for the transition specifically for VRF, so under the new rules, if you have something that -- if you have a project that was permitted under, permitted prior to the, October 5th, 2023 date when the EPA adopted all these rules, then you can install VRF equipment that was manufactured before January of ’26, all the way until January 1st, 2028. But you weren't permitted before that, your cut off is January 1st, 2027. So, you know, it kind of gives you -- little advantage to those earlier permanent projects. But, I’m not sure how beneficial it is since most of this project should be wrapped up anyway.

Speaker:

So I agree with you. And it's interesting because I actually have a project in Houston right now. We designed it in the VRF systems, permitted, and now with this administration change and this kind of limbo area that we're dealing with, it's becoming an issue. Do we move forward with the A2L, or do you take the chance and moving forward with the R-410A system. Are you seeing some of the same issues on your side?

Speaker:

Yeah, and it kind of hearkens back to some of the challenges we had with the split system, the DX split systems, when they were transitioning last year. You know, what's the project's schedule look like? Right. Can they get the equipment ordered by the end of this year to meet that January 1st, 2026 manufacturing cutoff. If they can, then it's a risk. Can they get them installed by the time? You know what -- depending on when it was permitted, January 1st, 2027 or 2028.

Speaker:

And that becomes a bigger issue because I'm seeing some of the contractors and general contractors talk about the install date versus the purchase date or the fully completed installation date. What is that really?

Speaker:

So as far as the EPA is concerned, it's a fully installed system. And that means that you have the indoor unit, you have the outdoor unit, you have the refrigerant piping between them and a fully charged system. So that's their definition. And in order to comply with that definition, it also means it needs to be powered because you can't charge a system without power. Right, right.

Speaker:

It's, all good stuff to know. And that really impacts the general contractor and the owner to make that decision on how to move forward. Now, with that said, in the International Code versus the Uniform Code, are you seeing differences there?

Speaker:

There are some differences. Under the International Code, it kind of, moves a little bit further away from ASHRAE 15, whereas the Uniform Code is a little more closely tied to ASHRAE 15. But I think you've run into some, challenges under the Uniform Code.

Speaker:

You're correct. And we cannot, design or approach design similarly, like you would do in the International, for instance, in Houston under the Uniform Code, similar with Austin under the Uniform Mechanical Code, the idea of shafts is really not a requirement. And so what cities such as Houston is allowing the use of ASHRAE, right, to where we could use that voided space, get the inch and a half clearance and don't -- we don't have to worry about this concept of having the rated shafts and work through that. Unlike what you’re see, because that's a big challenge that the, ownership has to deal with, with that net rentable loss.

Speaker:

It is. And we have seen and it varies widely based on the jurisdiction, but we have seen some jurisdictions be okay with, substituting ASHRAE 15, for Chapter 11 of the IMC. Yeah. And then we've been rejected in other jurisdictions, and we've had to put in the shafts.

Speaker:

Right. Right. You know, we work with, one developer on multiple of different areas utilizing that ASHRAE method. And I think more jurisdictions are becoming, knowledgeable with that concept and allowing that trade off, in essence, for ASHRAE, which actually helps the projects one - move forward, two - you don't lose that net rentable. And so I think Jordan & Skala taking the step in moving that forward and really setting meetings to help educate some of the jurisdictions, has been a win for -- the developers.

Speaker:

Yeah. And, just as an example of that, you know, we -- had a project in the DC area where we - it was permitted under the 2015 code. So it's, it's an older job. But the 2015 code doesn't allow A2Ls. So we submitted a code modification to use A2Ls, but we were going to do shafts per the latest Virginia code, because this one is in Virginia. We sent that in, and then six months went by and we didn't hear from the county. And we finally touched base with them and they're like, well, we're -- getting more receptive to the idea of using ASHRAE 15 to eliminate the shafts. So we’re like, okay, well, we'll redesign, we’ll eliminate the shafts and we'll send them a new code modification. And they sat on that one for a few months. And then one day the chief building official called me up and was like, you know, I'm open to the idea of eliminating shafts, but I can't do it under ASHRAE 15 because it throws in too many wrenches in the works for, how we enforce the code. So can you submit it using the proposed changes to the 2027 IMC and use that as your argument. And that one did get approved, finally, after about a year.

Speaker:

But you were persistent and, that's amazing. You know, one last case study on this, A2L, and then we can move on to a different topic. But I tell you, we worked really hard on a project that, I think our Dallas office is currently, working -- working on. We met with, it was City of Fort Worth, met with them, had multiple conversations, work them through all the nuances, the -- between -- the differences of the International Code versus ASHRAE. And probably took us maybe a month and after that they really understood, took all those pointers, and now it it's going to be one of their white sheet within their amendments to allow that use versus a shaft.

Speaker:

Okay so, they’re actually publishing a white paper to guide people on how to do this.

Speaker:

And what you realize throughout that whole kind of, situation is education and understanding the difference and the nuances of what A2L means, what ASHRAE’s asking versus what the International Mechanical Code is asking. And through those differences, you can really point out, okay, if you substitute here, you really are gaining, in essence, the same thing.

Speaker:

Yeah. And it's interesting you say education, because we, we have had projects where we had to have a lot of discussions with the code officials to educate them on what are the latest developments in the code. And, you know, we’ve even gone to Board of Appeals hearings, beyond the code officials, upon the code officials’ recommendation that we do that, and explain it to them, and they -- they agreed that, yeah, this does provide equivalent protection to the shafts.

Speaker:

It's amazing when changes take place and it's so impactful, but not a lot of information to make that transition take place. And now we so far into these different changes and there's still a little bit of limbo to VRF, hopefully that gets worked out relatively quickly. But it's it's definitely been a challenge.

Speaker:

It has been.

Speaker:

Talk to us about these new upcoming 2021 codes, you know, what - what are you seeing and how does it impacting either the energy code and different parts of the areas and different project types?

Speaker:

Yeah, -- we're seeing the 21 codes being adopted in a lot more jurisdictions. I think you've been dealing with them here in the Midwest, a lot more than we have on the East Coast. But they're they're starting to hit the East Coast. And the energy code really is a challenge compared to the 2018 and prior energy codes.

Speaker:

Oh, and I agree with you. You know, the idea of energy model -- energy modeling just being utilized for just that purpose, right? Just the building efficiency. When you look at the 2021 codes and the energy code, it almost drives you to have an energy model as part of the basis of design. I mean, just doing that model in itself, you could eliminate the use of ERVs. That’s a big savings for an owner. And again, it goes back to that education because the code states this. But understanding that you can use -- there's exceptions and that's published, right, to allow that. I think the energy modeling - utilizing that model to save on the ERV, I mean, even utilizing the model on continuous exterior installation and the big cost savings for ownerships, if they allow that to take place.

Speaker:

So when you do an energy model, you have to offset the energy savings with something else.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

What have you been seeing, as being used as that energy savings to offset it.

Speaker:

Yeah. Good question. A lot of it tends to come from the efficiency of the mechanical systems. Right. Increasing the efficiency tends to help a lot. You know, big portion of that model is on your windows, right? Your windows, better windows, create a better performing building. And then I think there's the trade off with your lighting. Right. Ensuring that you're using higher efficient lighting fixtures, I mean all of that plays a role. But like you said, it's a trade off. Yeah. And so different building types will operate a little bit better than some. But again the energy model in that energy code nowadays you're not going to really, for a high rise building, just doing a COMcheck is not necessarily going to get it done. Right, right.

Speaker:

Especially under the ‘21 code, if you were to take that COMCheck path to comply, you'd have to do the energy recovery for dwelling units, like you mentioned.

Speaker:

Exactly. But beyond that, you also have to do the additional energy efficiency requirements. And that section of the code has been completely rewritten for the ’21 version of the IECC and it's become more of a point system. Right. You have to pick all these different strategies. And it's not just an MEP solution. It's also an architectural solution. There's no one category that we can use to meet that. In the past, we’d say, okay, well we're going to do a 10% efficiency for lights and that was it, and we’re done.

Speaker:

That's right. But now we have to use the points. And it varies based on the building type, where it is, and the climate zone. And we've also been telling our clients that the energy model itself, yes, it will get you through for the COMcheck or the energy efficiency requirement of the project. But also there's so many different aspects of, pursuing sustainability, pursuing tax credit, pursuing different cost savings that a particular city may offer. That model plays a big role to show that you're building is more efficient and therefore you could potentially qualify for, different savings that that maybe that power company offers or whether solar, whether it’s gas or electric, but it's all based on that energy model picture. So it's more than just the MEP.

Speaker:

Yeah. No, I totally agree. Yeah, there's -- if we were to follow the ASHRAE 90.1 approach to an energy model. are there different requirements there that you’ve been seeing, like, any mandatory provisions that you’ve had to follow?

Speaker:

I mean, there are specific mandatory requirements that we follow and it's hard to go outline all of them because they're different, specific for different project sites.

Speaker:

But I will say our team, I mean that's the that's the beauty of it, we have a team that really can focus that effort on these particular energy models and how to achieve these different, points. And help navigate those mandatory provisions. Not only just the provisions, but also navigate through any other, sustainable options that a particular city or a particular power company may offer in terms of incentives. And yeah, those incentives can add up to a lot of money. Real quick.

Speaker:

Totally agree.

Speaker:

Yep. You know, we talk about, you know, the tariffs. It's a it's a little bit of a fear right now with how these tariffs are going to impact, our industry. I mean I personally am seeing developers talk about it. How is it going to really impact I think we got to wait and see. What are you hearing and seeing from other developers around?

Speaker:

We have heard some developers that are like, well, we're not sure how it's going to affect, there's a lot of speculation. And it seems like every day the rules about the tariffs change, more get applied, some get taken away, negotiations get applied. Just this morning they implied that there are going to be more negotiations. Right. It's really hard to pin it down, but, we we are hearing that, you know, the cost of HVAC equipment and electrical gear is going to go up. Partially because some of it's imported, and and some of it just a lot of components are imported.

Speaker:

Agreed.

Speaker:

So, it's kind of too early to really tell the impact, but it does appear that it's going to drive prices up. I agree with you.

Speaker:

That same project I was discussing earlier. Same thing. They're going to lock in that VRF system. But the client did ask, can you lock in the tariffs or what's going to happen to the tariffs. How is that going to impact price? And the contractor said I could lock you in for the VRFs, but I don't know what's going to happen there. And that that is what everybody is experiencing right now. A lot of uncertainty. And, just got to wait and see. What that -- outcome looks like.

Speaker:

And unfortunately, for a lot of owners, we see a lot of qualifications and exclusions come through that exclude the price of tariffs. Right, right. It really could become anything.

Speaker:

Yeah. It's unfortunate.

Speaker:

You know, I guess talk about construction administration and just different changes and how you really are approaching that nowadays.

Speaker:

Well, it's changed a lot. You know, I've been in the industry almost 20 years now, and, you know, when, when I started, you’d get a stack of paper submittals, six copies from the architect, and you’d have to review them and mark them up, and then you keep a copy for yourself and send it back and, and then, you know, we've had these construction management programs, available to us for quite a while now. And so instead of everything getting funneled through the architect, and kind of gets shotgun to the whole team. And, you know, maybe you need to respond to it, maybe you don't, depending on how it's set up, it can be confusing for us as MEPs, but, you know, it's the flow of information is definitely accelerated. And the expected turnaround time on submittals and RFIs is reduced.

Speaker:

I agree. I, I mean, I remember just like you, entering the MEP world, the amount of construction administration right now has increased tenfold. I mean, it's -- everything's a RFI, everything's a submittal. I myself, I think there's a cost associated with that because it does impact time. Do you see that on the East Coast?

Speaker:

Yeah, we certainly do. And, sometimes it's it's, contractors genuinely asking a question. Sometimes it's contractors fishing for a change order or at least that's the implication that comes across. And and, you know, we we have some projects in some areas where the contractor just needs a lot more hand-holding than other areas. And, and that drives up the number of RFIs. And so the, the, the reasonable number of RFIs for a project has kind of changed. And it depends on what region you’re in, and and how experienced the contracting community is.

Speaker:

And I agree. And I think, the demand for delivery of projects being on time, just technical services associated with the construction industry itself and the process I think has taken a lot of time. So it is shortening. And, how much you actually going through and reading specifications, to get some of that information, that are being now being requested through our RFIs, which creates a bigger log of RFIs.

Speaker:

Yeah. And you know, sometimes, yeah, people will be like, well, this project had an unreasonable number of RFIs, but that's really subjective thing. Right. Because it depends on the project type and all those other variables like experience of the contractor, what the purpose of the RFIs is.

Speaker:

Yeah I agree. And I think what we've also seen is you can have the same general contractor but maybe a different team. And these different teams can handle and better understand that construction process and reduce those RFIs.

Speaker:

I totally agree and we’ve seen that.

Speaker:

Yeah -- and you know, how do you manage that? I think what we see is contractors are starting to do what they call submittal parties. Oh yeah. You know, been part of those before. And, you know, some some do it better than others. But I will say if a 2 to 3 day being in an office, being in a room and going through those, through, submittals, it does shorten up on the back end. And I've seen it work on a couple of projects. I don't know how I feel about it for every project, me stuck in a room for 2 to 3 days. It’s hard to get everybody’s schedule to work together for that. But it's happened. It's worked on some projects. Have you -- are you seeing some submittal parties and them being more of a frequent ask?

Speaker:

You know, I haven't seen it since COVID Okay. I saw it a lot pre-COVID. Okay. Have you been seeing them after COVID?

Speaker:

You know, I, I just interviewed, I have, I just interviewed for a project and one of their requirements was submittal parties. And to me, that tells me, okay, they do take their submittals and that same process pretty serious. But at the same time, they're trying to put all the stuff out early, figure out what needs to get changed, and run through that process. That means that kind of streamlining --streamlining that process, which I can see the benefit of it, you know.

Speaker:

Do you see any downsides for an owner for a submittal party?

Speaker:

You know, I, I guess the only downside, I would say, is you're getting a lot of stuff approved early. So owners never change their mind. Right? Never happens. So I think to me that could potentially be the downside, right? You've already have all these items approved. You know, with the industry going and how logistics is becoming an issue, ordering of equipment becomes problematic. So I see the benefit to that in terms of doing it early. And now you could lock in and go ahead and make your equipment, orders earlier. But you know, as owners, do, you know, they want to change light fixtures, they might want to change the plumbing fixtures, they may want to change certain items. And that can at times create a potential issue. At least that's how I see it. And now has that happen, I don't know, but I can see that as being a potential negative to the submittal parties.

Speaker:

When you've been involved with those submittal parties, have you seen certain submittals excluded from them like maybe ones that require more review or anything?

Speaker:

You know, no, I can't say they've been excluded. I will say there's probably more time spent with that contractor and owner to really work through those details earlier. So again, I feel like there's a lot of benefit to submittal parties. You just have to have have it outlined, have the staff, both internally and then from the general contractor side and like you said, gathering everybody in the room. You know, I've seen it work. I've seen it work on a couple of projects, which was beneficial to where you're not getting, you know, one submittal every 2 to 3 days. You know, lasting about six months. Yeah. In a week you've gone through the process. Now, you may have to come back another week to revisit some of the, comments.

Speaker:

Maybe some of them are revised and resubmit.

Speaker:

Exactly. But let's just say anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks, we've completed all the submittals on a project that lasts 24, 18 to 24 months.

Speaker:

So so if you had an owner that came to you ahead of time and said, we want to, we know we want to do a submittal party, how would that affect a fee that you would give?

Speaker:

That's a great question. You know, I think my fee would still essentially be the same outside of maybe having some sort of additional services for a resubmittal get together. Right? Because I think initially we are we going to review the submittals anyhow, I think the resubmittal and doing that party and having everybody back for another two, three, four days. Blocking out that amount of time. I agree, I think that's that would be a conversation I would want with ownership to understand. I mean, there's a timeframe, there's a cost. Typically we’re doing that, and you know typical AIA contract is, you know, you have either 2 to 3 days for a RFI and a week for submittals. Well, we're trying to do all that in 3 or 4 days. So I think there is a cost, there's a benefit to that conversation, and as it relates to costs and and coming back, I do think it's I see the benefit. But I also would want them to understand what that means to us. I mean, yeah, there's some time and effort associated with that. All right.

Speaker:

Yeah. No, it is tough in this day of constant meetings to block out that much time for M, E, and P.

Speaker:

No, I agree, I agree. Well, we discussed a lot today.

Speaker:

We certainly have.

Speaker:

Yeah, I really appreciate you joining us. And hopefully you guys will come back and, join us soon.

Speaker:

Well, thanks for having me.