The Coordination Conversation

#2 - When the Rules Change, the Benefits Don’t: Green Building

• Jordan & Skala Engineers • Season 1 • Episode 2

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In this episode, we unpack the evolving landscape of green building programs from ENERGY STAR and NGBS to LEED and beyond. As federal sustainability policies shift, we dive into the real-world incentives, verification requirements, and performance standards that still make green certifications a smart investment.

But this isn’t just about checklists. We explore how sustainability ties directly into the core of engineering, from HVAC system design and envelope performance to long-term energy use and operational cost savings. Whether you're designing to meet code, qualify for incentives, or simply create a better building, the case for smart, efficient systems has never been stronger.

Contents of this Video

00:00 - Introduction
00:45 - Changes in Green Programs
03:21 - NGBS (National Green Building Standard) Program
05:49 - NGBS vs. ENERGY STAR
12:26 - LEED for Multi-Family, Core & Shell & Warehouses
16:12 - State/Jurisdictional Requirements & Incentives
19:31 - Energy Modeling
27:23 - Bespoke Programs
30:11 - Existing Building Programs

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Disclaimer:
The views and opinions expressed in this video are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the official policies or positions of any video partners or affiliates.
All content provided is for general informational purposes only and is not intended as professional advice for any specific project, site, or situation. Project requirements, conditions, and regulations vary, and what is discussed in this video may not apply to your specific circumstances.
Any reliance you place on this information is strictly at your own risk. Viewers should always consult with a qualified professional before making project-related decisions.
Jordan & Skala Engineers assumes no responsibility or liability for any errors or omissions in the content or for any actions taken based on the information provided.

This content is the intellectual property of Jordan & Skala Engineers and may not be reproduced, redistributed, or used by any third party without the express written permission of JSE.

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Speaker:

Hello, everybody. Welcome to today's show. I'm here today with Riley Killian who is Manager of Sustainability Services. You focus on green building and energy services, which is kind of taking projects up to the end of design. I’m Mike Dawson. I work on client solutions. I basically provide, or look to provide, the least burdensome, most cost-effective, pathway to meet our clients’ needs. A big part of that is what we're going to talk about today, which is green programs. So green programs, obviously, there's a lot of them out there. There's a lot of nuances. You know, there's various reasons why a client would choose a green program. And we kind of want to give you some advice and guidance about why you should choose a particular program for a particular project, or why not. Yeah. Yep. So obviously, Riley, right now, there’s all sorts going on, as far as green goes, you know. So, we’ve had a sustained period of several years where there’s been a focus and a drive to increase sustainability and energy efficiency in building new construction and in existing buildings. But right now we're kind of feeling as though there’s a push against that. You know, is that a reality, or is there still a place for, you know, green programs?

Speaker:

I think there's always going to be a place for green building programs. But a lot of those jurisdictions, so while federally maybe things are changing. But a lot of it is we can also just those jurisdictional things that we have in certain cities like Denver, Austin, states like California, that are still driving and pushing for those sustainable practices and those green building programs because they do, in fact, make a better place to live for people. They’re better office spaces for people, better places to work. And in the long run, they're going to be better buildings. They’re going to be better built and long term better.

Speaker:

Yeah. I think, you know, in my role, obviously as a team, you know, we're very passionate about sustainability. Yes. We’re kind of sustainability geeks. We love green programs. Because of the reasons you outlined. They do make buildings better. They do make them best places to work, best places to live, but from a developer perspective, and an owner perspective, they’re kinda coming at it from a different angle. Right. In the most part, not in every case, we have a lot of clients who want to put these programs in place to make sure that they, you know, for quality assurance. Right. Right. But in most instances it's because they either need to do it for financing or they need to do it jurisdictionally. Or, you know, they're looking at getting incentives. Basically they're forced into it. Yeah. Right? For want of a better word. So with the Inflation Reduction Act and the changes to 45L, we saw a transition, a big transition, with ENERGY STAR. Yes. ENERGY STAR became super popular all the sudden. Because you could get the 45L tax credit through certification and that kind of in the last, probably two years, has been the primary program. Now we’re sort of seeing a shift again back towards NGBS. Yeah. Right. So NGBS, we'll start with that one. Yep. Because it's probably the most developer-friendly green program, right? Just tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker:

Yeah for sure. It's definitely going to be, it's one of the most popular ones that we work on every day. For a couple of reasons. one, it's fairly affordable in comparison to other green building programs. Because it follows in line with code and just pushes it a little bit further. So it is going to be the most developer friendly. And then it's also fairly easy to achieve with minimal changes. There's going to be things that you're going to have to change. However, it's going to be pretty minimal, and you can pick and choose what you're willing to spend money on and what you don't want to spend money on, because it's all point based system. And so our consultants works with you and talk with you about which project, what do you want to spend money on for that specific project? And maybe Houston, you want to spend money on something different than if you're in Denver. And so that's going to be cause -- allow flexibility. But the other thing is you're going to have someone on site third party verification. So you're therefore going to have a much better building. It's going to be built to higher standards because somebody else is coming in and being like, yes, this installation is installed properly, these systems are installed properly. This is what we were looking for. Yes. They work. What a concept. And so it's going to be, you're going to end up having a better building because somebody is coming out and looking at your building and saying, yes, this is correct or no, actually, this needs to be changed.

Speaker:

Yeah. I mean, you know, the reality is that code kind of dictates that these inspections should be taking place anyway. Right, exactly. But, you know, with, with the green certification, you have to verify it. You have to provide evidence. You have to submit the evidence to whoever the certifying entity is Right. So, you know that once you’ve got the report what it says in there is accurate. Yeah. I think, one point about NGBS that you made, about how it aligns with code. From an upfront cost perspective - It’s minimal. Yeah. So, and even there's a transition, or there’s an upcoming transition, to NGBS being based on 2021 IECC.

Speaker:

Yes. So it'll be later this year. It was just delayed six months but it will be later this year. Probably.

Speaker:

And we’re seeing obviously a lot of jurisdictions adopting 2021 IECC, even 2024 IECC. That is now coming up. As if things weren’t complicated enough for us. You know. Now we got this whole new code coming into play. Yeah. But in terms of program itself what are the differences between ENERGY STAR and NGBS?

Speaker:

Yes. So, ENERGY STAR is focusing purely on energy. How do we become more energy efficient, and reducing that energy bill essentially. And energy use. Whereas NGBS is going to be more of that holistic. So you're looking at landscape, you're looking at civil, you're looking at MEP. All of the above, you're going to be looking at it. And you can also pick and choose on the points on the scorecard of what you want to spend money on and what you don't. Whereas ENERGY STAR, with energy efficiency measures, we can absolutely do some moving around of where we want to spend money, where we don't. But they do have a checklist that we have to be more specific on. You have to do these things. And then you also have to do the energy efficiency measures.

Speaker:

But from a short-, medium, or long-term perspective, ENERGY STAR is a fabulous project if you want an energy efficient building. It's going to be lower utility costs whether it's for you or for your tenants. But more money in people's pocket makes people happy. And then you know, you have to maintain a certain - well, you don't have to maintain to keep your certification for ENERGY STAR But you can monitor the energy usage of your building as it ages.

Speaker:

So that's something else that we do. We go in projects every single year. Look at their utility usage in each and every single unit and every, clubhouse, common area, all of that. We put it into a system and can tell you how it compares to other projects and buildings in that area.

Speaker:

I think it's an important point as well for long-term holders, you know, that’s a Yeah. For you to see and understand how your building’s performing as it gets older. If you’ve pursued a green program, been certified, had everything in place, theoretically you’re good, right. And you should be good for a longer period of time than if you hadn’t done one. Right. Exactly. But, you can continue to monitor that even if you don't have to. Right. It’s a great thing to do. And it's. Yeah.

Speaker:

And it's - and I, I'm somebody that loves data. So I think it's super interesting to like watch how your energy usage - and then you can also pinpoint like okay something's wrong with this unit. Let's figure out what's going on. What is it. It's not sealed properly. Like what is it about these few units that have a significantly higher energy usage than all the other units in the building?

Speaker:

Could be a simple fix, it could be an expensive fix, but at the end of the day, at least you’re able to identify it. We could do an energy audit, we can do retro commissioning, We can do whatever, but we can fix it. Right. It doesn’t have to keep costing you money.

Speaker:

And we had a project that they came to us and they it had a green building certification and they had to do the HUD MIP tracking of their energy usage and their usage was terrible. And so we went and helped them.

Speaker:

We didn’t certify that, right? We did not certify that.

Speaker:

No. Absolutely not. But they'd worked for a couple of other firms trying to figure out what it was on this project, that they couldn't figure out why the energy was so bad. And we went out there and were able to just be like, you don't have great insulation. That was the biggest issue for this specific project, but it made it an easy of like, this is what we can go and fix. We don't have to add all installation, update all the HVAC, fix all the lighting, It was - we could give them a more direct option.

Speaker:

And I think, you know, that's another important point to talk about is that it does matter who you work with on this type of project. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Because you know, there's levels of understanding. You know, like, we're fortunate we’re an engineering company, we’re led by engineers, we understand the requirements. Yeah. We understand why the requirements are in place and we understand what can be done to remedy the issues.

Speaker:

Yeah. Right. And like being able to go to our MEP teams and be like hey this is the issue we're having with this project. And it's a project that they're working on. We can work through it internally. Figure out a solution before we even have to go to the client and be like, there's a problem. We find the problem, we discuss the problem, we fix it before even having to go to the client. And it also helps, our MEP teams, they know sustainability services, I think more than a lot of other engineering firms because they have us in-house. And if they have a question, they can be like, hey, I don't understand this HVAC design report. I don't understand how to do this. Can you please help? And so I think that that is helpful for us from a sustainability point of view where we can get help from our MEP teams, but also for our MEP teams, they're able to get help from us.

Speaker:

Yeah, we definitely educate each other don’t we? Yeah. Oh for sure. You know, we work independently from each other. You don't have to have Jordan & Skala sustainability. and Jordan & Skala MEP working on a project together. In a lot of cases that doesn’t happen. Yeah. We’re the sustainability consultant on our project and we’re working with another MEP firm - that’s fine. But having one less consultant to work with does streamline things a lot.

Speaker:

Yeah. Oh for sure. Because it's - we have those conversations and even like we are working on projects that MEP teams don't understand how to do an HVAC design report, but they don't have a sustainability in-house to like help them. But for the projects that we are working on, our MEP teams just call us one of us and say, hey, we really need help with those, I don't understand. And so I think it makes it easier on both sides.

Speaker:

We're able to look at things that are coming down the line, like we talk about, you know, code changes. Like we did with refrigerant changes that came about recently. There was a lot of overlap and discussion between our MEP teams and between us. You know, about what the impact was going to be, how it was going to affect things. Yeah. So it's great that we're able to sort of look ahead. And come up with solutions before we have to.

Speaker:

Yeah. And like 2024 IECC. It's coming. We have jurisdictions adopting it currently. And so we have people in-house that are helping us understand what's going to happen in both for the MEP side and for sustainability. And I think that that's very helpful.

Speaker:

Aside from the understanding of the requirements, aside from having that engineering expertise, I think there are verifiers, and there are verifiers Yeah. Yes. You know, so there are people that will say, “yeah, okay, this is fine.” The example in case, the project before where it was certified, everything was good but in a very, very short period time that was found not to be the case Yeah. You know there are lots of consultants out there that are great. You know, we’re not the only ones. And we’re not trying to say that you should use us because we’re the only people. But the point I’m making is, to our clients, that just kind of vet who you’re working with on this kind of project because it makes a massive, massive difference.

Speaker:

And especially - if you're not vetting it and then you don't end up having a good building then you didn't, you didn't get the benefit that you were hoping for.

Speaker:

So moving away multi-family for a second, well not completely moving away from multi-family, but let’s talk a little bit about LEED. Like LEED is still, I think LEED is still, the sort of most certified program in the US. And there are multi-family programs with LEED, right. But it's not really the best option for multi-family, is it?

Speaker:

It's not most cost friendly I would say. It's going to be one of the more expensive programs. And there's, it is scorecard based but it is more difficult to achieve. It's a great option that we use a lot for distribution and warehouses. Because they have programs for core and shell and for warehouses, which makes a big difference. Because NGBS does not. So that's not an option. So we do a lot of LEED projects for that. For distribution centers, there's going to be less that we're going to have to turn in for submittals and verification and all of those things into LEED. And so, it's harder because there's fewer points that you can go for. But it's also easier because there's less components to your building. So it's a lot of documentation for LEED. And so for multifamily projects, we're working on a multifamily project right now. It's just a different it's more documentation That's - it's more burdensome on the client. It's more burdensome on the client. And like GC, whoever's having to send us all those submittals to like, go through, and then we go and look for all the different documentation that go with that submittal, and then we turn it into LEED. So it's a lot more documentation based. But the bright side about LEED is you can pick and choose what you want to spend money on. We can tell you what the low hanging fruit is. We can be like, these are going to be the easy points for you to achieve, but they're not necessarily the ones you have to go to if you'd rather go to these other ones. Let's do it. Whatever works best for your project.

Speaker:

I think that's the overall point. The overriding factor is that you choose the program that suits your project the best. Like we don’t have a dog in the fight. We don't, we're not advocating for one program over another. Right. We realize and understand that NGBS works on this project and an identical project in the same city might not work the same way, depending on what your base design starts at.

Speaker:

And what the owner and developer is looking for. Like, are they going to be a long-term holder in the project? Are they building it and then going to try to sell it in a year? There's different things that the owner and developers want. And so each project is going to be different. And we have to tailor each consulting to that type of project.

Speaker:

I mean, I have a lot of those conversations where, you know, a client reaches out specifically about Program A. I'd say okay, fine. I'll go away, I’ll look the project, and I’ll come back and say, you know, this might also work for you. It might be more expensive in this area but based on everything, you might be better looking at this. So that's the point of these green programs is there are so many of them. And there are so many of them. Some are better than others. None of them are probably perfect. You know, because at the end of the day they I'm sure they would love to go further, all of them, you know, But they can't, you know, they've got to take into account what owners and developers are going to be prepared to do. And willing to do. Yep. Same code with code. So you've got to do things in steps, right? Yep. And I think that's, if we can just continue to give clients all of the options. And help to sort of, you know, decide right, okay, if I'm going to do this, you know, 45-story, high-rise or whatever, then I’m not going to do ENERGY STAR because it’s going to cost me an absolute fortune. The building would be amazing. It would be amazing. And it’s going to save them a fortune. Right. But it's just not practical. It's too expensive to implement everything. Which is why we’ve got LEED, things like that. Exactly. And then just going back to, like, state and jurisdictional stuff. There's there is an overlap. Between what code requires and what a green program requires. Although it could be an added expense, to put a green program in, the benefits that you could get from that, because of the overlap, it really reduces the deltas to pursue.

Speaker:

Right. Exactly. So like if you're in a place that is 2021 IECC and requires the testing, then the delta for ENERGY STAR, not that that big because you're already going to have to be out there for that testing. And so you might as well get ENERGY STAR because you do the design, not a crazy fee, And then you do the testing and verification, which is not that much more above code because you already have to get that testing done. So it's - I would say the green building programs, they are able to be based on the code. But then just take you a little step further. And so they can and they end up having better buildings.

Speaker:

And there's a lot of jurisdictions that will allow you to choose a green program and get certified in that to comply with their requirements.

Speaker:

Yeah exactly. So like in AEGB, you can - it’s a green building program in Austin. That you then have a better building for green building because they want those green building certifications in Austin for what they're building. Like, that's something that's important to the city. And then in places like Houston, you can also get utility incentives. If you do these above code programs, you end up getting in quite a bit of money for doing different, practices, whether it's adding different HVAC systems, windows, lightings, whatever it might be. Each program's a little bit different, but you're able to get an incentive back from your city as well. In a lot of cities.

Speaker:

So I think you mentioned Houston there, you know a great example of that is is the CenterPoint Yeah. You can - so basically for doing nothing extra, Right. If you're pursuing ENERGY STAR or NGBS and it’s a HUD MIP project and you've got to do a energy model and you’ve got to do testing and you’ve got to do the verification Your CenterPoint incentive is what? $250 or more a unit? Average, depending on the things you do, yeah. CenterPoint’s not the only one, there’s lots of them everywhere. It’s one of the better ones.

Speaker:

Yeah. And it's one that we've done a lot of work with. And so I have a lot of experience with that project, but it's not - there's some in Oregon. There's some in - like they're all over. You just have to be working with somebody that knows that those incentives exist so they can help you get those incentives, because a lot of times they need that verification from somebody, a third party, which JSE can fill that role.

Speaker:

Yeah. You've got to explore what options are available to you. And not just from utility providers. There’s tax breaks that cities offer and things like that. There's all kinds of stuff out there. Isn’t there? Oh yeah. It’s kind of hidden away. We have a hard time trying to find it most of the time, When we're actively looking for it. But it’s there and the message is make sure you either look yourself Right, when you’re designing your projects, or you speak to your consultant and say hey, what else can you get for us? Yeah. Like I say all of this is free, effectively. Yeah. Yeah. You’re already doing it and you’re getting paid for it.

Speaker:

So I kind of get frustrated, at the perception that, let's do an energy model if COMcheck or REScheck fails. Right. And because people see energy modeling as an expense, an additional expense. If we don't have to do that, if we don’t have to spend that money And by the way it's not a great deal of money. You know, to do an energy model. But the perception is that well, we'll only do it if we have to. But there’s a ton of benefits to just doing an energy model anyway.

Speaker:

Yeah. You can - with like a REScheck and COMCheck, there's certain requirements that you have to meet. Whereas with an energy model you can do trade offs. So like if you don't want to do slab installation you'd rather have better windows or whatever it might be. We can do those trade offs in an energy model. You tell us. You're like, what do you not want to do? What are you willing to do? And we can put that into our software and help you figure out a solution and path forward, which can end up saving you more money down the line, because you're going to have a better built, energy efficient building.

Speaker:

And that's the thing. Instead of looking at it as an expense right then it can be a benefit, it can save you money on the project.

Speaker:

Yeah. You have to look at it more long term. And while some owners and developers like they're not planning to keep those buildings long term. But just like with green building programs, there's benefits to having those when you're going to sell. And like when you're trying to get tenants and when you're trying to do all of those things because better buildings, more efficient utility bills are a big thing. And so if there's anything you can do to reduce those, that's like a big deal.

Speaker:

Yeah. And I think that's something else that’s overlooked I mean again, right at the beginning I said that we are pro green building, we’re pro sustainability for the reason that it's factually correct, that green certified buildings are better buildings. There's all kinds of deniability about climate change and one thing and another. And people have different opinions on alternative power sources and carbon emissions and everything else. It’s a huge, complicated subject. Right. But, the work that we do, the analysis that we do through modeling, the verification that we do through Yeah. visually going out there and checking, and testing envelopes and you know testing ducts and things like that. It shows clearly, that it's better if it's done this way - properly.

Speaker:

Yeah. And like insulation, that's like one of the things that we look at when we're going out and verifying, making sure that it's installed properly and not just like thrown into the wall with no purpose, like that is a big deal. And then you're not using too many- too much insulation and like with overlaps and different things like that, which A. cost you more money but B. it’s less efficient. So the utilities are going to be more expensive. And so I think it's that long term look at what you're actually building for longevity of the building in general.

Speaker:

Yeah. And again, that's something that we all have a responsibility to produce better, more efficient buildings for people to live in. Whether you're going to build it and sell it. Or, you’re going to build it and keep it for 30 years or whatever. Right. The bottom line is that we have to be focused on a more sustainable future. Yeah. I was reading a report this morning and it said that the most inefficient or the, the, the biggest waste of energy is still HVAC. Right. We, again, we're not going to get into climate change and things like that. Yeah. The reality is that we've had a successive run of the hottest years. And that’s meaning that HVAC systems are being used more, which is using more energy. Right. Exactly. That's a fact. Which means your utility bills are going up. Exactly. So, and, I think from a marketability - this is in the news all the time now it’s a very, very commonly discussed topic So even people that wouldn't know LEED from NGBS from ENERGY STAR, if they don't know what it means. If something has a green certificate, it's something you mentioned sustainability, You know this building has been designed and built to whatever green standard. Yeah. From a marketability perspective people recognize that, don’t they?

Speaker:

Oh for sure. And like there's people like when I'm explaining what I do for a living, everyone has heard of LEED. Everyone has heard of ENERGY STAR. They're not uncommon names. You see ENERGY STAR when you buy an appliance. Like we have ENERGY STAR appliances. And you can also have an ENERGY STAR building.

Speaker:

And that's a very good point. You know a person is going to buy an ENERGY STAR fridge as opposed to an not-ENERGY STAR fridge, because they know It's more energy efficient. It’s going to save money. Right. So why would they not do the same when they’re renting an apartment? Exactly. Exactly. It makes sense. It does. And so there’s marketability to it. I know that - there's, you know, some skepticism. I don't even know if there's actually any facts out there to back this up. In terms of X amount more ENERGY STAR units are rented per year than not, right. Because it all comes down to availability and everything else, doesn’t it. You know, but we know for sure that people recognize it, people understand it, and people want it.

Speaker:

They're healthier to live in, and you're getting fresh air, which is incredible. You're getting well sealed apartments. And my dad always said, growing up, please don't AC the outside. And so like but that is a lot of old houses. Like if you go through the old houses, you can feel the like -

Speaker:

Don’t even, honestly. I bought a house. Or we bought a house last year. It's like it was built in you know, the seventies or whatever, And it’s lovely, but I kind of hate knowing what I know now. Yes. You know, because I'm walking around and I'm like, okay, that needs to change, that needs to change, that - It’s a fact. There's no denying that proper insulation, well-sealed ducts, a good envelope, etc. It works. It makes it more efficient. And it does save you a fortune.

Speaker:

Yeah. I actually live in a Passive House and so like the, which is an insane certification that it's what a lot of people do it for like a very high end building. Like it's going to be their showcase building. But they're really cool projects and the energy efficiency and the ceiling of the project, I am amazed at how much I'm like, oh, I am very sealed in this room. But then I'm also getting that fresh air that's coming through. So I'm it's not like getting stuffy or anything like that, but it is a very cool you get into these buildings and once you start to think about it, you're like, oh, this is actually really cool. What I'm in right now. It’s like a living thing, isn’t it? Yes. 100%. And it's - you're like, I'm also being a part of making the world a little bit better, a little bit healthier for 50 years from now. Because if we have to take those buildings that are trying to be rehabbed to be - have less energy efficiency, most of the time it's just cheaper and more affordable to tear them down. And if we just keep tearing buildings down, it's just so much waste.

Speaker:

Yeah. I mean, that You know, you got Denver - You’re from Denver, I’m from Atlanta, In both of those cities there's a push to reduce the amount of carbon emissions. And, most of it is coming from old, commerical property. And obviously as you say, you can't just turn around and say, we’ll gut them and we’ll turn them into a multi-family building because there is still a housing shortage, right? Because when you actually look into what’s involved in the demo on that, it’s insane what they’re going to have to do. So they’re just knocking them down and starting again. So if we build them right in the first place.

Speaker:

Then we don’t have to do that! Yeah, fifty years from now, we’re not going to have this problem. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker:

So while we’re talking about green program and and what’s the best fit, right. We - if you don't have to do a green program, you don’t want to do a green program, but you do care about the standard of the building that you’re designing, we can make a bespoke program.

Speaker:

Yep. Absolutely. We can help you figure out what you want to do. What are the big things that are important to you. Yeah. About your project, and we can tailor it around that. So if you really want an energy model, you really want commissioning, somebody to come verify - third party verification and tell you, yes, this insulation is looking good. Yes. We're doing - we're doing blower door testing, checking the leakage like all of those things. We can do that. There's a lot of different options.

Speaker:

And does it, I mean, would it theoretically, would it help you, in the design process if you said right, okay, this is going to be our standard. From now on, everything that we build. Right. We're going to have this for QA. Right. We’re going to use a little bit of LEED, a little bit of ENERGY STAR, a little bit of NGBS, a little bit of WELL, whatever, right? Like you said, pick and choose your “credits.” Yeah. Exactly. Okay. You're not going to get a certification at the end of it. You're not necessarily going to benefit from it from an incentive or deductions perspective or whatever. Right. But you are going to know, hey, that’s a good product.

Speaker:

Well and you could still be getting incentives from your local utility. Like if they're someone like - if you're doing this in Houston, I'm going back to that because I know the CenterPoint program really well. There's still things you can get money for on that. And so just because you're not doing a traditional green building program doesn't mean that there's not programs out there that help with, funding for heat pumps or for funding for better windows or whatever it might be. And so there's always options.

Speaker:

Yeah. You can get, you know, a lot of these incentives that local providers offer, it's not just for new construction, is it? It's also for improvements.

Speaker:

Oh yeah. Because like for example in Denver right now one of the big things is they're trying to reduce the energy use intensity in all commercial buildings. You can see all of the energy use intensity maps. They're working on it very hard. It's a very big push in Denver right now. And so they are doing incentives for doing ASHRAE audits. Which is going - and there's different levels, so it depends on which level you do, but going out and having someone come and look at your building and tell you where you can improve efficiencies. There's also incentives for heat pumps and all - like putting those into your buildings for when you're trying to get that better energy use. And so there are options. But it's, you have to be looking, you have to be looking for them. They're not going to come and knock on your door. No.

Speaker:

And you can also get, you can get certified for making improvements to an existing building as well, right? Yeah. So there's existing building certifications. There's a couple of different options. And it kind of really depends on the type of building, what would be the best option for specific projects. Because there's some that don't offer existing building, but then there's others that do. And so it's talking to some - an expert on what would be best for your building and what you're trying to do for your building.

Speaker:

Because you’ve got like BREEAM In-Use, right? Yep. You’ve got LEED for Buildings. You’ve got ENERGY STAR for Buildings, I think. Or something like that. There is one, yes. So and again it doesn't necessarily gain you anything from a financial perspective Right. But if you're gonna make those improvements, why not, you know, get something to tell the world that, hey we’ve done this. Because otherwise, how is anyone going to know? That's the other thing as well about that from a financial perspective, Investors, you know, they are focusing more on knowing that they’ve got value for money. So if you, if you’re building a new high-rise or small multi-family, or single-family project or whatever investors want to know that they’re getting value for money. Right, exactly. They want to know that their money is being spent correctly So whilst there's kind of a it feels like there's a trend away from sustainability and green building from a financial perspective, the focus seems to be more and more on that.

Speaker:

It's still a big deal. And you're still - they're still asking for these things. And you have your local jurisdictions that are pushing it. And so things can happen federally every single day. They do. But in local jurisdictions, they’re going to continue to move forward. And I genuinely think that that is happening. We're seeing it happen. And there's just like some jurisdictions that, you know, that they're not going to move backwards. That's just not going to happen. Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah. Exactly. And again, we have to be aware that there's that we're looking at it from a sustainability perspective Right. and owners/developers are looking at it from a cost perspective Right. But the bottom line is everything that we talked about today in relation to green programs, there's a place for them. There's always going to be a place for them. There's always going to be progress. There’s - as you said, there's not going to be a reduction in the push on energy use or sustainability Right?

Speaker:

Yeah. It has to continue. Yeah. And once you adopt one energy code you're not going to go oh I'm going to go back to 2009 IECC Like that - it’s just not going to happen. Yeah. But you're going to see jurisdictions going into 2024 IECC. And, and we're already seeing it. And so, you just have to be prepared for it. And so like, why not do a green building program? Why not add it on to your project? The delta is becoming smaller, especially as different jurisdictions are requiring those testing requirements. So the delta does get smaller for things like ENERGY STAR. And so why not? What is the downside?

Speaker:

Yeah. So I think, you know, in summary, we know that they’re here to stay. The science isn't going to go away like nothings going to change, there’s going to have to be a continued push for sustainability in new construction. And in existing buildings, we're going to have to reduce our energy usage. You know, we can’t continue going the way we are. There is a lot of uncertainty and a lot of kind of fear at the moment around you know, what's going to happen. Is it worth me doing this? Are they going to take it away from me at the end? Is it going to be worth it in two years? But that's, that's what we're here for right. Us, and other consultants like that. We want to guide you, least burdensome, most effective pathway, not just to green programs, but to sustainability in general. Yeah, Just talk to us. You know, talk to us and other consultants. Find out what you can potentially gain from getting green certification and I think you might be surprised.

Speaker:

So anyway, That about wraps everything up for today doesn’t it? So we, we hope to see you on the next one.